Foot Brake Or Not

[009crewchief]

:helmet:
I am writing concerning the recent revelation that Pageland Dragway has condoned the use of Transbrakes in their supposedly "FOOT BRAKE" class. Using a button, whether it's on the steering wheel or not, is not FOOTBRAKING. And it is not debatable.
I'm sure my other true FOOT BRAKE competitors will agree.
I have noticed that the class name is "MODIFIED ELIMINATOR". So I will not waste energy debating what the class actually is.
In the event the track decides to "change the rules", or condon unfair advantages allowed to certain competitors, would it be too much to ask to pass out flyers, e-mail the members, or in some way attempt to contact the competitors.:paperbag:
I enjoy competing at P.D.
I don't enjoy realizing, in the midst of competition, that I am being placed at a disadvantage. :mad:
RULE, OR RULE INTERPRETATION CHANGES, SHOULD NOT BE MADE IN THE MIDST OF A RACE. TO KEEP THE PLAYING FIELD LEVEL, COMPETITORS SHOULD BE NOTIFIED, AND, GIVEN AMPLE TIME TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT TO MAKE THE CHANGES TO REMAIN COMPETITIVE.:whoops:
For the record...I wonder how many "FOOTBRAKE" races were won this year with a button and a stutter box???...more than one I bet.:eek:
By the way, 009 is looking forward to running in the "FINGERBUTTON" Modified Eliminator class next year!!!!:cool:
009Crewchief

[Mike Bradley]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer this post but I'll take a stab at it. I assume you must be talking about this past Saturday's Kendall Funderburk Memorial 10K Shootout. I would have to get 100% clarification from Doug Mayhew, M&M Motorsports, but I think the two classes that were separated were cars with delay box's and cars without. This was done to keep the bottom bulb type super stock racers from having to run with the delay box cars. Now as far as the regular season goes, we don't allow a transbrake to be used in Footbrake/Modified Eliminator. IHRA Division-2 West adopted the transbrake rule for Modified Eliminator but not Division-2 East. I walked the pits Saturday and didn't hear any of the Footbrake guys saying anything about this. Unless D-2 East adopts the IHRA classification of Modified Eliminator as a true "No Box" class then we'll stay with the true Footbrake rules. I hope I've answered your question and concerns. If not feel free to contact me or Doug Mayhew (704)578-8265. We have a great Footbrake program and want to do all we can to see it grow in the years to come.

[009crewchief]

Mike,
I appreciate your concern with our issues. Thanks for contacting both me and Billy. One thing that our race team prides itself in doing is playing hard, fair, and by the rules. Just to give you an example...We ripped the cage out of the 009truck and built a new one prior to this year, just because it didn't comply with the rulebook.
If we go home at the end of the night with a loss and are satisfied that we did our best, and didn't CHEAT, we can be proud. If we win and didn't CHEAT, we can be proud. Unfortunately we live in the real world and not all competitors share these same values. We are of the Smokey Yunick school of thought, "if it says it ain't legal, don't mess with it"...everything else is fair game.
I made some mistakes as crewchief this year during the season. One thing I did was fail to play close attention to each and every car that we competed against in our division. I always went right back to the pits after our car ran...that will not happen next year! My driver and I have both commited to one another that if we suspect anyone of cheating from now on...WE WILL TAKE A LOOK!
I politely request that Pageland Dragway police this to the degree that we can show up and not have to consider whether or not the playing field is level. ANY TRACK OR COMPETITOR WHO IS INTERESTED IN RUNNING A FAIR AND HONEST COMPETITION SHOULD NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS. Of the 12 events we participated in this year, I saw no footbrake competitor checked by the track. THATS AN OPEN INVITATION FOR THE CHEATERS...AND WORD TRAVELS FAST. Anyone one cutting 020 lights or better in 2 consecutive rounds should be looked at by the track each round... and most definitely, the race winner should be looked at. AGAIN...FAIR PLAYERS WON"T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS...ONLY CHEATERS WILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.
Using electronic media, it's difficult to interpret emotion, rest assured I am NOT dis-satisfied with my racing experience at PD this year...but there is a lot of work that should be done so that people don't take advantage of the naivity of track operaters OR competitors. If operaters don't police it...PEOPLE WILL CHEAT. If the racers don't police it ...PEOPLE WILL CHEAT. I'm not blaming anyone...I'm saying that operators and racers need to pull together to kick out the CROOKS and CHEATS.
AND...for any of you CHEATERS out there that may be reading this...BE PREPARED TO RUN 009 STRAIGHT-UP NEXT YEAR...WE WILL BE PREPARED TO HAVE A LOOK...that's a GUARANTEE!
When will the footbrake competitors know for sure whether or not Div2 East will adopt the Div2 West button rule or not?
009Crewchief

[chevyIIracer]

well i could be wrong but i am pretty sure if you think someone is cheating you can a put up a 100 dollars or so to protest them. Feel free to look in the chevy II at any time, i dont even have a button for the line lock its on a switch like it supposed to be according to ihra.

[009crewchiefboss]

hey kyle,
good to hear from a fellow racer.you're right about the 100 bucks...but tell the truth...you already knew that didn't ya :biggrin2:
we all know who's doin it right and who ain't anyway
just letting everybody know up front where we stand on the whole situation...out in the open...no side conversations...no secrets.
good to see you doin the same:cool:
009crewchief

[S-10 08]

If yall think someone is cheating why don't you put up the money and get someone to check the car out.You say if someone has a .020 light two times in a row they need to be checked.I know plenty of Footbrake drivers that can do that.Everyone thinks that it is so easy to leave on a transbrake,you need to try it.The only advantage transbrake gives you is,your car leaves at the same RPM everytime.You still have to stage the same and let go of the button at the sametime everytime.There is not enough time in a day to go look at every Footbrake car at the track,so if you suspect someone is cheating get your money and get Doug to go look at it,but just about every car that has a Power Glide in it has a transbrake.

[009crewchief]

Good to hear from you s10 08,
Not sure if I know you or not.
You're right, drag racing period is tuff.
We don't THINK some of the guys are cheating, WE KNOW. What I am doing is making it known that if they don't want to be embarrased next year by being thrown out of a race...GET RID OF THE TRANSBRAKES OR MOVE UP TO PRO.
Mike established in his first reply that they are NOT allowed in FOOTBRAKE at PD.:eek:
As far as not having enough time in a day to Tech cars...thats the same as saying there's not enough time to ensure a fair competition.
I can check for a Transbrake in 5 seconds. For a 100 car entry, thats 500 seconds, thats 8.3 minutes if you do the math to check every car. Add walking time between them in the lineup, and your up to maybe 20 minutes 30 minutes tops. If you don't have a transbrake...you can't use all the other electronic stuff...so thats all you need to look for anyway.:confused:
009crewchief

[2camaroracing]

The transbrake don't make you cut a better light,you got to have all the other goodies along with it. Now i don't run foot brake but i do understand what you are saying. The rule don't say you can't have a transbrake it simply says it can't be hooked up,but on the other hand a wise man once told me that a man that says he knows someone is cheating then if you look close enough at that person he also is cheating.

[009crewchief]

That's right 2camaroracing. If you ain't got the Transbrake it ain't possible. I mentioned checking for the Transbrake for that very reason.
As for your comment...Anybody who wants to take a look at us...we won't even make you pay the 100 to the track.
ANYBODY ELSE WANT TO MAN-UP LIKE THAT
By the way...a wise man once told me the very first thing to look for is "dark tinted windows" :cool:
009crewchief

[S-10 08]

Like I said,95% of the cars with PowerGlides have a Transbrake Valve Body because its just as cheap to go ahead and put it in.Just because a car has a Transbrake don't mean that they are using it.If they have a Pro Brake,they have to have some way to activate it so they can back up.You can't just look at someones car and because it has a Transbrake on it assume that they are using it.Like 2cameroracing said,you have to have all the other electronics to go with it to make it really work affectively and then some people can't make it work then.Wheather someone is using a transbrake or not,if you beat them on the tree and run your dail in you are gonna beat them anyway.

[BHicks9411]

Dead on Chub.

Who do we think may have a unfair advantage?

Oh and it ain't cheatin if ya don't get caught:biggrin2: .

[bryn1]

I'm a footbrake racer and this is just my opinion. its fine if you have the transbreak and if you need it to back up then it has to be on a toggle switch not a button. and nothing should be on the steering wheel. like chub said if you buy a glide it would make no sense not to get the transbreak.It sounds like whoever is accusing someone of cheating should have done it at the track on raceday not get on the website and pout about it if you "saw it" then you should have done something about it then. I learned along time ago if you go to the starting line worrying about the other car then they have already won.sometimes we tend to blame someone or something else when in fact we just got beat. so i feel that if i "saw" someone cheating i would say something then. because this makes you sound like a sore loser once again just my opinion please take no offense

bryan

[Mike Bradley]

I'll interject here from the tracks perspective. We have an obligation to check the cars for "unapproved" item(s) before, during and after the race. Honestly I don't think there's wide spread cheating going on in Footbrake. Yea we need to spot check the cars each week but I don't suspect we'll find anything. Many of the Footbrake cars competing today do have transbrakes valve bodies in them. The ones without the Pro Brake are just about always unplugged at the solenoid. The ones with Pro Brake have to have 12-volts applied for reverse. I see no problem with this as long as the button is on the dash or someplace where you have to reach over to activate the switch for reverse. In other words have it so when you're in the seat buckled in you can't reach the switch. Also there shouldn't be any switches on the steering wheel. I'm not a big fan of tinted windows from a safety standpoint as well as impairing the starter from seeing what's going on in the car. We'll address this to make sure everyone has a level playing field. The Footbrake class is *VERY* competitive at Pageland. If you can go rounds here then you can pretty much win anywhere else. Then again that could be said for all the classes at Pageland. Let's all work together to grow the Footbrake class next season to reclaim the Team Final championship.

You asked when the decision would be made regarding transbrakes being legal in Modified Eliminator for D-2 East. Honestly I don't know. We don't have a teleconference scheduled with IHRA at this time. With the tracks that make up D-2 East I wouldn't expect to see the transbrake allowed any time soon. I pretty much know the voting record of the other track operators and it won't carry. Rest assure I'll keep everyone posted on any rule changes for the up coming season.

[009crewchiefboss]

bryn1,
i new full well when i started this thread that there could be a misinterpretation of its intent. rest assured our crew will take our butt cuttings like a grown ups. no "pouting" going on here. We're gonna give out some butt cuttings too and we will handle it with class.
until starting this post and making the controversial comments, it was our understanding that the next time we showed up at PD, we could use anything but a delay box in modified.
actually, this is probably the best forum to discuss issues like this because everyone can have their say without interruption. there will be a few wise-guys trying to stir the pot but thats just human nature. but ultimatley, i'm just glad to see the tracks position on this issue.
i would hate to put up 100 bucks at the season opener next year to look at someone and then be told that buttons are ok in footbrake...do you see where i'm coming from? GET EVERYTHING OUT IN THE OPEN NOW...BEFORE THE SEASON STARTS.
I don't suspect there is wide spread cheating going on either...heck, i don't even think it's the same ones every time either...BUT IT IS HAPPENNING.
BY THE WAY...to whom it may concern.... I never said delay box racing was easy...it just ain't legal in foot brake...and using electronics IS a more finite method of bracket racing...thats why there is a different class.:banghead:
009crewchief
as far as my comments about looking at someone next year...thats not pouting either...its a GUARANTEE.:biggrin2:

[009crewchiefboss]

and ohh bryn1,
to be honest...it was a fan in the stands that brought it to our attention...do you think they were "pouting" because their man didn't win? they want to see fair competitions as well. WITHOUT THEM THERE IS NO US.
Any fans out there that want to jump the bryn1 ship....we more than welcome you on the 009 cruise ship.
and Mike,
I believe in my heart that you would have to add capacity in the pits and grandstands to hold the crowd if PD takes these issues by the horn as you say. Every racer wants a level playing field and this promotes a great show which the fans love to see.
009crewchief

[Lstarnes]

I hate u had problems in footbrake. If someone was cheating I would be the 1st one to check on it. When we 1st started checking cars for transbrakes I checked one car 3 to 4 times because people said he was cheating That why we started charging $100.00 Because there was nothing wrong and it inconvinced to the driver.But we don't see it all. If you feel you are sure that someone is cheating you can put up a $100 and the car will teched if he is not cheating the driver gets the $100. Did the people in the stands look for pre-load in the tires or did they hear someone get on the rev limiter right before they left. Or was it a 2 step. As well the fan can put up the $100 if they know for sure so.meone is cheating

Thanks, Jeff Starnes

[2camaroracing]

Here we go again with that he said she said theary. i've sit in the stands alot & you would be supprised at the spectors that can tell when someone is cheating. Like i said earlier we don't run f/b but we got protested in top a few yrs back just b/c in 7 rds of racing the worst bulb was 009.Now call it luck or what you will but if you're on then you will do no wrong. I have seen the JPD Staff ck f/b cars over & over b/c of this same matter these guys do there jobs well.
This is not intended to pi!!!!!!!! anyone off it is merly my opion

[009crewchiefboss]

Jeff,
I'm sure the fan didn't know they could put up the 100...i'll ask.
But dude, feel free to bring 009 a 100 bucks, we won't mind.
As far as what I know about specific infractions...I personally saw one racer leaving on a button on the steering wheel in a final round and winning. The FAN, whom will remain nameless, mentioned the stutter box on atleast 2 more different cars and a button beside the driver on 2 more.
We know who they are and the crowd is gonna find out if they bring that crap next year.
Look...all you have to do is look for trends in R/T. How many times do you see certain racers never get the bye until quarters or semis? Dude..ain't nobody that good on the foot. What...they dialing in their foot???? like my man just said...your either on your game or not.
009crewchief

[Lstarnes]

I know i cant fix the past somone needs to say somthing then!

[009crewchiefboss]

jeff,
Man...don't sweat it.
Basically, what I'm saying is, you can count on our help in making sure we have fair races next year. Billy and I were the new guys this year and the way we see it, when you go up in somebody else's house for the first time you keep your mouth shut and watch how things are done. We consider ourselves part of the family now and feel like we can speak up. I can't stress enough...we are not disappointed with PD, the PD staff...only the button pushers in foot brake. We can fix it ...YES WE CAN.:laughing:
009crewchief

[bryn1]

well i dont like cheating either but now its he said she said it still should have been handled that day at the track because when other people see these kinds of posts they think there is cheating going on when nobody knows what proof if any you or anybody else has and for your witness to be the only one to see and hear this. and comes to you BUT you dont say nothing just let it keep going when you could have stopped it then and not only helped the track but maybe even the next person the driver or drivers in question faced. but everybody handles things in their own way wish you the best in 09 look forward to seeing you in the lanes

[Mike Bradley]

I'm curious to know how the Footbrake cars were inspected at the Bracket Finals this season. I've often wondered if IHRA ever even looks at any of the cars. Have any of you ever really had your cars inspected at a Bracket Final?

I'll share this funny episode with you from last season. It's about a month or two into the season and at the conclusion of the race a Footbrakers wife comes running up to me saying she wants to protest one of the other racers. I say okay what item(s) do you specifically want to protest. She says "oh, it isn't anything like that it's just that he's winning too much". I reassured her that the gentleman had some pretty heavy credentials to back up his success on the track. When you eat, sleep and breath something you usually get pretty good at it. I hear all the time, man Buddy and Calvin and Dannie are tough to beat week in and week out. Yea they are good Footbrake racers but they've always been doing it for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnng time. Now you've got guys like Joel Carroll and Ryan Snipes that are winning rounds on a consistent basis. It's kind of like this past weekend at the 10K Shootout. The local guys that put laps down each week were the ones to beat.

I'll get beat up for saying this but a transbrake doesn't make a bottom bulb racer a better racer necessarily. You are still leaving off the bottom bulb assuming you're using a snap action button.

Okay enough of my ramblings. We'll come up with a infraction "fine" structure to place on anyone caught cheating. The proceeds will go into the drivers fund for the end of season programs. Maybe we need to implement a fine structure like NASCAR. Man, they took a bite out of team Red Bull and Brian Vickers this week. Can you say ouch!

[Tom 396]

"...I'm curious to know how the Footbrake cars were inspected at the Bracket Finals this season. I've often wondered if IHRA ever even looks at any of the cars. Have any of you ever really had your cars inspected at a Bracket Final?..."

:biggrin: They inspect your membership card to make sure you have paid this season's dues. Then you are good to go. :biggrin2: Take care. Tom Worthington.

http://www.hotrodder.com/Tom396

[BHicks9411]

Exactly Tom. Great idea Mike.

Mike, I've heard for year's how Buddy Plyler was cheating. Sorta always ticked me off. I've raced with Buddy since I started and he's taught me alot and still is. He's just good. He's been racing longer than I been walking and I can walk pretty **** good. I drove his Big Show Nova last year. Made two laps and was 00 red and 00 green. Hadn't footbraked in year's, and when I did, I was dumping a clutch and stick shifting. Now Buddy is good but alot has to do with the car and equipment being used. Couple that with the fact people know that they gotta go when running Buddy and they end up screwing up some how.
We got quote cheaters in TOP too. NOT at Pageland but if you go to the BIG MONEY RACES around, you'll see some strange things. I don't wanna say they're cheatin though. Some will call these same racer's flat out cheaters though. This has nothing to do with footbrake but my point is Pageland is far from being flooded with cheaters. I think this is a limited/single situation. I think 009 should not allow someone to get by with it if they think they are cheatin. I also don't think they started this post to blame anyone becasue they haven't named names. I agree with what most everyone has said to a degree. Great discussion about something that should be kept up with every year. The Pageland staff does a great job and so do the racer's of watching these things.

[009crewchiefboss]

Bhicks9411,
HALLELUJAH BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SOMEBODY FINALLY GETS IT.
MIKE,
How about this idea...FOOTBRAKERS REQIURED TO KEEP BOTH HANDS ON THE WHEEL FROM PRESTAGE ON DOWN OR YOU FORFEIT THE ROUND. "ESPECIALLY FOR SAFETY"
Easy to police by the starter at the line. W/O tinted windows.
THEN...There would be no way to use a hand operated removable button...unless someone has a very SPECIAL gift...if you know what I mean.:laughing:
Then; when you do tha techs...all you would have to look for is souped up "dimmer" switches (hmmm I mighta just ticked a few off with that one) in the floorboard, which ain't easily removed and "stuffed" when they see you coming.
The rest of the illegal stuff would be pretty easy to find...boxes,throttle switches, & stuff like that.
I do have an off-the-wall question here...does anyone know or know where i can find the specs for the ihra staging/starting beam locations...stuff like distance between them, their distance apart from their respective receivers, and their height from the track surface & tree location relative to them. I noticed at the finals that ihra reset all this stuff.
NO MIKE I'M NOT BUILDING A TRACK:nailbite: :laughing:
009crewchief

[009crewchiefboss]

By the way Mike,
Our C-A-R-D was found perfectly legal at the finals too.:eyeroll:
009crewchief

[2camaroracing]

Hey 009 go to dragraceresults .com there is a thread on there on this subject, you might have to look back a couple of days as things get posted real quick just look &you will find it.

[2camaroracing]

This idea want work b/c then you're telling them they have got to buy an electric shifter etc or put a trans in that will shift automatic & theres no rule that says that. But for the most part most of them do have both hands on the wheel when leaving the line. Oh almost forgot what about those that have just 1 hand. Not a good idea!! just keep in mind when you come to the track bring a bag of $100s with you it want take you long to see that every body is on the same field unless you own the bank hahahahaha:biggrin:

[383nova]

I have a three speed turbo so even then i would have to shift one gear even with a electric shifter.

[2camaroracing]

Hey Ryan i guess you would have to buy the B.M Pro Rachet they make one to make both shifts but that is what i was talking about.

[009crewchiefboss]

hey 2camaroracing,
man I looked all over raceresults and didn't see the thread. Do you happen to remember which forum and maybe the title of the thread?
By the way...didn't mean to slight any physically challenged racers out there. I have an enormous amount of respect for you guys.
I'll start a new thread here with that title and see what happens.
Thanks,
009crewchief

[Mike Bradley]

I'm not sure about this link. I'm out of town and I'm posting this via my cell phone. The thread is on page 2 of general discussion section. I can't type fast enough on my phone to give you all the measurements you asked for. If you don't find what you need on DRR I'll post it from the computer when I get home tomorrow.

http://drr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/75460652/m/3801022593

[2camaroracing]

Hey Mike you are dead on the name of the thread is

Track Dimesions-Distance from stage beam to tree its on p 2 in general discussion

[2camaroracing]

None taking i just like to help if i think i know something about what is going on. Been where you are & thought the same thing about some racers in the day,turns out people do things in there car that makes no sense then makes others think wrong doings are going on.

[009crewchiefboss]

mike,
found it. now i'm really confused. please respond with the most current specs.
thanks,
009crewchief

[staginglt]

Anyone one cutting 020 lights or better in 2 consecutive rounds should be looked at by the track each round...

You're kidding, right? No offense intended to anyone, but if you're NOT cutting .020 or better lights pretty consistently, you need to work on your car's setup and a practice tree until you *can* do so. With some guys, you'd have to just ride along with them all day to "inspect them after every .020 or better light".

If someone is really cheating, call them out and be done with it. It's extremely obvious when a Footbrake car is leaving off a transbrake. Basing accusations on stats is patently ridiculous.

Some people have dedicated their lives to this sport, and there are a LOT of REALLY good drivers out there. I've raced at 40 tracks across much of the country. Great drivers are everywhere, and they are something to aspire to and learn from. I learn something at every race I go to. Instead of wondering "How are they cheating?" ask yourself how they accomplish what they do... or better yet, ask THEM! You may be surprised at how willing to help many racers are.

[009crewchief]

Staging light,
Check your e-mail. You have an opportunity to back up your statement and help a fellow racer. As far as the 020 lights go...that is simply a suggestion as to a criteria to do inspections ...to keep from having to check everyone.
But anyway, as I said, we were new in the house and were showing respect as far as calling someone out.
009crewchief

[furr980]

I'm curious to know how the Footbrake cars were inspected at the Bracket Finals this season. I've often wondered if IHRA ever even looks at any of the cars. Have any of you ever really had your cars inspected at a Bracket Final?

well mike at the div. 9 fin als this past weekend i seen the starting line officials visually inspect most cars that came to the line as they were staging, both top and fb cars.

hey 009, why are you making suggestions, judgements, or rules on how people should be when they are staging? shouldnt that be up to the individual? im not trying to make people mad here its just that we are told too much in our lives what we have to do. the only thing i want to know before staging is how long is the Autostart is. and as far as buttons are concerned, what if a driver from another division that allows buttons in the car and races in the same class as you, comes to your track and races, are you gonna throw him out? just a thought?

[009crewchiefboss]

Well, furr980
ultimately it's up to the track operater to make rulings in those situations...heck...in all situations...and its up to the competitor, from those rulings, to decide if he wants to compete there... If you'll recall from my original post...all I wanted to know is what the rules are/will be for footbrake...and am prepared to compete according to them.
I agree with your opinion on rules...but I tend to handle them better when I know what they are beforehand.
As far as my opinion on your scenario concerning buttons, I would not allow anything electronic other than a distributer, coil, and tach in a footbrake class...and my suggestion for staging was to better police potential cheating.
As far as driver visiting from another track which allows electronics..."when you are a guest in someone else's house" follow their rules."
I happen to be of the opinion that electronics should not be allowed in footbrake class...sorry if that offends anyone.
009crewchief

[Tom 396]

"...Basing accusations on stats is patently ridiculous..."

Accusations of cheating, based on stats is indeed patently ridiculous. Stats and proof of cheating are two totally unrelated things, right Michael? Take care. Tom Worthington.

http://www.hotrodder.com/Tom396

[009crewchiefboss]

ok...ok...ok,
enough with the "patently ridiculous" stuff.
How's this then.
Gather DATA, assimilate the DATA, utilize deductive reasoning, interpret the data, discard false indicaters, consider the probability of natural or mathematical repeatability, and draw a conclusion....is that better?
Using stats to determine the probabilty of someone cheating is perfectly logical. The attraction to cheating, in and of itself, is, in the Drag Racing world, to gain repeatability. :eyeroll:
It is "patently ridiculous" to assume that one could determine repeatability without employing statistical analysis; hence, the need to employ it.
Statistical analysis is at the very core effective problem solving.
Mr. Demming would sooooooo disagree with ya'll.
How's that for some big words!:laughing:
Duck tape,
Doesn't it make sense to check the dudes that "own" the tree and run the #? . They win
How can you determine that w/o stats?
Why would you check someone who piddles around at the line and never runs the #? They loose
How can you determine that w/o stats?
By the way, I'm still waiting for your reply to my e-mail.
Man this is fun. I'm having a ball.
009crewchief:rambo:

[S-10 08]

You say you need to check someone that is on the tree and their car runs the number cause they are winning.If you aren't on the tree and you car isn't running the number,you don't need to worry about who's cheating,you need to worry about doing a better job of driving and learn to tune your car.Just because someone is have great reaction times and their car runs the dail in,doesn't mean they are cheating,it means they have their stuff together.

[383nova]

Well when ur talking bout footbrake purposes i found it hard to believe that one man can cut 3 or 4 .00 lights in competition repeatedly without slipping to even an .01 or .02, no matter how good you are, but it doesn't do any good to talk about it now tho.

[009crewchief]

383 Nova.
My sentiments exactly. But consider this...what is the probability that the "slips to 020 and 010" ocurr consistantly in the quarters or semis. NOT VERY HIGH. That's why I draw my conclusion that it is imperitive to consider stats in the search for cheaters.
s10 08.
I,m not saying that everyone who wins is a cheater...I'm saying that people cheat to win...not lose...soooo... the probability of a winnner to also be a cheater, is greater.
The greater percentage of cheaters will be concentrated in the groups of winners.
These 2 conditions are mutually inclusive.
009crewchief

[staginglt]

"...Basing accusations on stats is patently ridiculous..."

Accusations of cheating, based on stats is indeed patently ridiculous. Stats and proof of cheating are two totally unrelated things, right Michael?

Good one, Tom. :eyeroll: I'll give you credit for taking one sentence out of its context. The cheating we are referring to here is leaving off a transbrake, which is FAR easier to spot simply by watching a car's chassis when it's staged & launched, and listen for a 2-step, hence why I preceded the statement with "It's extremely obvious when a Footbrake car is leaving off a transbrake."

That's without even going into how in addition to a transbrake and 2-step, said cheater will likely also be employing a delay box AND given that there are a number of footbrakers who are quicker and more consistent on the than some box racers, it would stand to reason that the cheater is also using a light sensor in order to be SO consistently double-oh as to draw attention to the driver.

There was a racer in Maryland that was using a transbrake in a footbrake class... They spotted it, and he was thrown out for a year. Pretty simple.

How's this then.
Gather DATA, assimilate the DATA, utilize deductive reasoning, interpret the data, discard false indicaters, consider the probability of natural or mathematical repeatability, and draw a conclusion....is that better?

Yes, much! If you would use the method you just stated above, and then if you still found a driver that fits that criteria, then you approach the track, file the protest, and then if the driver is found to not be cheating, then the issue is put to rest. Statistical analysis would include far more than "two .020 or better lights".

Better yet, I've been to some races where they just do a quickie-look at the final four or final 8 cars. But all-in-all, I think racers police themselves very well, and I think cheating is extremely few and far between.

By the way, I'm still waiting for your reply to my e-mail.


Wrote back after lunch today. Sorry for the delay. I've been writing deadline race coverage and world championship profile stories for Drag Review Magazine. I'll help you any way I can.

I happen to be of the opinion that electronics should not be allowed in footbrake class...

I agree with that. In addition to bracket racing up north where it was No-Box (transbrakes and 2-steps permitted), I also run Stock (where 2-steps are permitted) and Super Stock (where transbrakes and 2-steps are permitted), and I footbrake. I have driven a couple of transbrake cars in the past, but prefer footbraking.


San Antonio Sportsnationals eliminations, Super Stock, 5th time I ever drove the Mirada... (footbraking)
.000, .007, .011, .018, .005

Bristol, World Footbrake Challenge $50K
.020, .013, .015, .004, .015, .015, .032, .018 (Three .015's in 4 runs?!?)

Bristol, World Footbrake Challenge $10K from 4th round on...
.008, .007, .018, .013, .001, .016, .019, .022, .024 (Double-entered, Win & R/U... admittedly sucked prior to 4th round)

3 days of racing at Pittsburgh Pro-Am
.004, .000, -.009, .016, .016, .015, .030 (got on converter late), .019, .000, .010, .011

Skyview Drags Pro-Am
.004, .052 (backed off, had an easy heads-up run in Stock), .007, .001.

Worst R/T of the year in the Volare: .052 (only one in .05's, and it was 'on purpose', as noted above)
Number of .04x lights: 10
Everything else is .03x or better in 186 runs.... 94%

There are some stats. Am I cheating?

Bottom line: postulate however you will, but when it comes down to it, either talk to the racer or file a protest with the track and be done with it. I know I would gladly show anybody all around my car, and I'm sure others would do the same.

Sorry so long, and didn't mean to sound heated.

[staginglt]

I don't mean to get so uppity over the subject, but I've been hearing this kind of stuff since I started racing in 1990. If it was the first time I'd heard it, I probably wouldn't react the same way, but it's nails-on-a-chalkboard after having been rehashed so many times. It has nothing to do with anyone here personally. It's kinda like the kids in the backseat saying "Are we there yet?" It's probably not too bad the first time they say it! :biggrin2:

:whoops:

-MB

[009crewchief]

Duck Tape,
Maybe not cheating...but definitely inside the "Bell".
Sorry...but if I was a track operater...I'd have to take a look... if for no other reason than to put forth the perception to the competitors that "we are making sure".
It might also be worth 100 of my own $ to check out such a fine peice of equipment.:biggrin2:
All,
How about this...
Maybe the whole issue here is the perception of being "looked at" or "accused of cheating". Could it actually be the ultimate compliment? An individual performs so well, that the "doubter" therefore assumes that the good performer could, in no way possible, have such good results. In the doubters mind, the good performer would have to be super-human to acheive those results...and no one is super-human...so...the good performer must be cheating. Or... is he super-human.:eek:
By the way...does anyone know where I can get one of these Staging beam sensor's that I am hearing about?
009crewchief

[Tom 396]

"...There are some stats. Am I cheating?..."

I base my answer on years of conversing with Michael, not on any runsheet numbers. Show me some runsheet numbers and I'll show you how to line a birdcage. I challenge anyone to conclusively prove cheating accusations based mostly, or even partially, on some runsheet numbers. Until somehow proven otherwise, I am always going to assume Michael is NOT cheating. That's just me.

Be careful though. You know how somebody can make runsheet data prove most any theory they want. Right Michael? Take care. Tom Worthington.

http://www.hotrodder.com/Tom396

[Tom 396]

"...Could it actually be the ultimate compliment? ..."

Anybody who tries to "compliment" me like that need to duck. I'm not at all flattered by having someone state that they think I am fully capable of lying and cheating just to win some ******* bracket race. Take care. Tom Worthington.

http://www.hotrodder.com/Tom396

[staginglt]

Duck Tape,
Maybe not cheating...but definitely inside the "Bell".

Thanks! :cool:

Sorry...but if I was a track operater...I'd have to take a look... if for no other reason than to put forth the perception to the competitors that "we are making sure".
It might also be worth 100 of my own $ to check out such a fine peice of equipment.:biggrin2:

Perhaps that's my underlying point. It wouldn't take the track or $100 out of your pocket. If it were me that you were talking about, you could come up to me at the track and say, "Man! How do you do that? Got anything fancy in the car?" and I would gladly give you a tour of the car, and try to answer any questions, drop a couple of tips, etc. Doesn't cost anybody any money, there are no hard feelings, and a couple of guys would get to know each other a little better and probably become good friends. Now if someone made their initial approach to somebody with, "Yer a cheatin' SOB!", that would be totally unnecessary.

Could it actually be the ultimate compliment? An individual performs so well, that the "doubter" therefore assumes that the good performer could, in no way possible, have such good results.


I can't fathom Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or Scotty Richardson. Some folks are just plain awesome. Personally, I would take it as a compliment, assuming that the "accuser" wasn't irate and in my face.

-MB

[009crewchiefboss]

"...Could it actually be the ultimate compliment? ..."

Anybody who tries to "compliment" me like that need to duck. I'm not at all flattered by having someone state that they think I am fully capable of lying and cheating just to win some ******* bracket race. Take care. Tom Worthington.
http://www.hotrodder.com/Tom396


Tom, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. Are you stating that regardless of the circumstances, if one was to 1) officially protest you, 2) approach you in the pits under cordial circumstance, 3) or approach you in the pits and call you a cheater, you would respond with violence?

Unfortunately, a racer is exposing himself to the possibility of either of those three things every time he enters an event.

By the way, we can agree to disagree on the use of statistics as one of the tools to police cheating. It's blatantly obvious that I believe I am right and you believe you are right.
No hard feelings here. No need to duck!:biggrin2:
009crewchief

[009crewchiefboss]

I guess that's it then.
I enjoyed the debate.
Peace be with my new-found friends!
009crewchief

[furr980]

i just wanted to clarify my statement. i never said the word electronics. i said buttons. butons dont always mean electronics are present. but what does it matter what one has in their car, just as long as we both leave with our feet who cares how many buttons one has. sorry it so long to respond.

[staginglt]

I think Allen likes driving my Duster... it doesn't even have a line lock in it! :biggrin:

[009crewchief]

Hey Duck Tape,:sleeping:
Check your E-mail...
009Crewchief

[Mike Bradley]

Hey Duck Tape,:sleeping:
Check your E-mail...
009Crewchief
Don't know for sure but I think Michael is out of town. He's getting married this Saturday so it may be a few days before he replies.

[staginglt]

For entertainment purposes...

My r/t's on Friday at the Piedmont Thanksgiving $2K race, double-entered.
Time shots: .007, .000, .004, .003
Eliminations: .020, .007, .002, .020, .019, .015, .014, .010, .014, .006, -.010

[Deezy411]

all i can say is Chris Plott, Richard Alferd, Steve Alferd, Seth Phillups, George Brown, Slim Davis, Jared pennigton, Richard Pennigton, Adam Davis, Manny Sousa, Anthony Fetch, James Young. The list goes on but my point is a 20 light dont even cut it half the time and if you race against any of these guys you will need a lot of $100's with you to protest because there going to be better than 20 everytime and normaly better than 10. Those people live for racing and have worked hard to be as good as they are. Some people have it some people dont and some people think everyones cheating. :rambo:

[ragtop]

:biggrin2: Those are some of the best, I was educated good racing those fellows in the old carolina coalition. They taught me that time and dedication will help a footbreaker the best. I won the footbrake championship this YEAR @ orangeburgdragstripllc.com. along w a top eliminator win and runner up w/ my ftbrake stang. I've had my car now 10yrs and have good races everywhere i went, it's a matter of knowing your car and ajusting to the track you're at. being 020 is not so great to a racer who knows his car, when i won top we were .00 every pass except the last one against mike harstadt who had a 200 0n my 04.we were dead on w/ 1 3 times. Cutting lights consitantly is a matter of doing all stage/launch steps the same.threres a lot of good ft breakers @jp so thet must be doing it right . goodluck in 2009.If you need helpdunnstang89@yahoo.com on a mustang set up in 09 feel free to e-mail me:biggrin2:
'

[ragtop]

Sry, @ the end of the last post should have been : if anyone needs help w/ a fox chasis stang I would be glad to help anyway I can. e-mail dunnstang89@yahoo.com

[ferndaleflyer]

I guess this argument got put to rest today as Div 2 East (including Pageland) announced today that Trans brakes, 2 & 3 steps are now allowed in Mod.

[Mike Bradley]

Don you are correct. Divided-2 East had a conference call late yesterday afternoon to discuss and vote on making D2 East a true IHRA "Box" and "No Box" division. Several of the other tracks had approached IHRA and asked for this to be discussed and voted on. Surprisingly the vote wasn't even close. The common denominator from the tracks was that if the majority of IHRA and NHRA divisions are designated "Box" and "No Box" now we felt it best long term to be of one accord.

So, starting with the next points race transbrakes and 2 or 3-steps are allowed in Modified Eliminator. We'll have a quick drivers meeting at the next points race to answering any questions.

[ferndaleflyer]

Kind of iffy area here as in all of NHRA Div. 1 (Virginia North) trans brakes are not allowed. Also in IHRA Div. 9 (Rockingham, Mooresville, Piedmont, MIR, etc) trans brakes are not allowed. So those of us running in 2 Div could be compromised by this. Sad day when the roots of the sport are ruled out in the name of progress and the special interests of some.

[Mike Bradley]

Don I'm kind of with ya on this. In the grand scheme of things I don't really see anything changing. The current good footbrake racers will continue to be good. I'll go out on a limb here and say if you take the top 5 in point's from last season, Buddy, Kyle, Joel, Dannie, and Ryan, maybe 2 (Kyle and Joel) of the 5 might elect to hook up their transbrakes. Do I think that will allow them to have an advantage over Buddy, Dannie, Ryan, Calvin, James, any of the racers who continue to footbrake? Nah I don't think so. If you're a good racer you're a good racer.

On one hand I hate the change and on another I think its best for all IHRA tracks/divisions to be on the same page. I've come to realize change sometimes comes with a very stiff price even when the change is for the best. I tried to find out which tracks had lobbied IHRA for the switch but they wouldn't divulge that information...LOL

The thing I'm most interested in seeing unfold is whether some of the current "BOX" racers will make the switch to "NO BOX". I would like to keep a true footbrake class in place at Pageland *ALONG* with "NO BOX" but we all know there isn't enough cars to make that happen. One option would be to consolidate Super Street and TCR (those with a drivers license) into a footbrake class with an E.T. limit of 7.99 or 7.49 and slower. Pageland like most tracks don't have an entry level class for people to start out in. Jr. Dragsters are great for the kids but we all know how expensive they can be to build and maintain. We welcome your input and suggestions on ways to promote a beginners class that will help grow the sport of drag racing.

[staginglt]

Don't matter to me what others are doing with their program... I will continue Footbraking as always. :rambo:

See y'all Saturday!

$.02,

-MB

[SMACdownracing1]

I am Formerly 009crewchief. and the original thread starter on this topic.
Thanks for the comp' hook up Mike thanks for the heads-up on rules changes...if anyone remembers, not getting the heads-up was the riginal gripe we had anyway...yada yada yada.
I have a few thoughts on a "beginners" footbrake class that I would like to put on the table.I will be starting a new thread in a day or so concerning this...ANY input will be welcome.
A conservative estimate on what I will be proposing ...an individual could put a vehicle on the track for around 7500 bucks.
peace out

[Mike Bradley]

I am Formerly 009crewchief. and the original thread starter on this topic.
Thanks for the comp' hook up Mike thanks for the heads-up on rules changes...if anyone remembers, not getting the heads-up was the riginal gripe we had anyway...yada yada yada.
I have a few thoughts on a "beginners" footbrake class that I would like to put on the table.I will be starting a new thread in a day or so concerning this...ANY input will be welcome.
A conservative estimate on what I will be proposing ...an individual could put a vehicle on the track for around 7500 bucks.
peace out
Alan no problem on the computer help and heads up on IHRA rule(s) change(s). I'm curious to see if we can come up with an entry level class that has a E.T. break as well lower cost. Say a true footbrake class 7.49 and slower and no electronics. Like any sport there has to be a beginning class to feed the other classes for long term survival.

[BHicks9411]

Uhhh, Trophy Class???? Worked before.:confused: :smile:

[ferndaleflyer]

The track where I raced most up North had a street class. 12.00 break on a 1/4 mile track, paid $200, 50, 25 & 25. Cars had to have lights, mufflers, DOT tires, etc. NO ELECTRONICS period! If you won 2 races you had to move up to footbrake (and it is still "foot brake" there) or sit out. Still has a large bunch of racers and has been going on for years. NHRA Div. 1 still has a street class although it has been ruined by the fact that some of the racers in it have been there winning for 30 years.

[ferndaleflyer]

Oh I forgot to mention that at 3 cars Sat there were no Butttons left. My no button loss 3rd round was .4990 red dead on with a Zero. .001 negative from a perfect run. Don't think I have ever been closer than that.

[SMACdownracing1]

If we hadn't burned a plug in the quarter-finals there would have been one with a button.:nailbite:
We were up on the tree but old orange just couldn't run the number on seven of 'em.:sick:
BTW
Does anyone know what happened with Ducktape? He left after first round.
peaceout

[383nova]

If we hadn't burned a plug in the quarter-finals there would have been one with a button.:nailbite:
We were up on the tree but old orange just couldn't run the number on seven of 'em.:sick:
BTW
Does anyone know what happened with Ducktape? He left after first round.
peaceout
Don told me, he was going to maryland or somewere to race if he lost 1st round.

[ferndaleflyer]

Ducky had to race Sunday in the Pro Am IHRA race at MIR---5 hour drive for him so he cut out as soon as he lost. Got his 5 show up points.

[staginglt]

Thanks for asking, guys... yah, that was a baaaad weekend. Got busted first round at Pageland, and I think I was loaded up and out the gate before they ran the bye run! LOL Drove 2 hrs home, got 4 hrs sleep, left for my 6hr drive to Maryland Int'l Raceway for the 2nd day of the Pro-Am event. Got 1 qualifying run, and got loaded up first round yet again. 14 hrs of driving in two days for nuthin'. :sick:

But I did win the IHRA Spring Nationals at Rockingham the following week! :helmet:

Now I have 10 entry points to make up at Pageland... -=sigh=- :eyeroll: :banghead: Just my opinion, but jeez... you have to make it to the finals just to make up for missing one race! :confused: I understand rewarding your "regulars", but it makes it tough on folks who want to support the program, but just can't be there often enough.

$.02,

[BHicks9411]

Thanks for asking, guys... yah, that was a baaaad weekend. Got busted first round at Pageland, and I think I was loaded up and out the gate before they ran the bye run! LOL Drove 2 hrs home, got 4 hrs sleep, left for my 6hr drive to Maryland Int'l Raceway for the 2nd day of the Pro-Am event. Got 1 qualifying run, and got loaded up first round yet again. 14 hrs of driving in two days for nuthin'. :sick:

But I did win the IHRA Spring Nationals at Rockingham the following week! :helmet:

Now I have 10 entry points to make up at Pageland... -=sigh=- :eyeroll: :banghead: Just my opinion, but jeez... you have to make it to the finals just to make up for missing one race! :confused: I understand rewarding your "regulars", but it makes it tough on folks who want to support the program, but just can't be there often enough.

$.02,

Two races, Beard, but I really don't think they'll hurt you:biggrin2: Besides maybe you'll get to drop em:cool:
Big Congrats on Rockingham, great accomplishment! Worth losing 5 lil Pageland points, I think:biggrin2:

[ferndaleflyer]

Lets hope we get it done tomorrow----If it were not for show up points and winning the dash I would about be dead as I have had car trouble at every points race so far. You comin Ducky????

[staginglt]

Plannin' on it, Fern.

>> Two races, Beard, but I really don't think they'll hurt you Besides maybe you'll get to drop em

Nope... I can only make about 10 races, and that's even pulling stunts like the Mooresville Pro-Am -> Pageland and Pageland -> MIR "double headers", so I need to score an "extra" win just to keep pace. I just hope I can scrape up enough points by season's end to make the Bracket Finals team. It is what it is, and I understand that. I'm hard-headed enough to try to pull it off under the given structure. I just hope there aren't a handful of racers who have looked at their schedule and said, "Well I can't make it to 12 races there, so I'm not even going to try." and end up racing elsewhere. Just my opinion, but I feel that 1, 2, or the semi-NC-standard of 3 entry points would be a better balance of rewarding your loyal racers without distancing potential newcomers.

>> Big Congrats on Rockingham, great accomplishment! Worth losing 5 lil Pageland points, I think

Thanks! In this one respect, it's "too bad" that IHRA and the Rock did such a great job with the schedule this year... had it been like years past, I might've been able to scoot out of there Saturday afternoon to squeeze in Pageland, too!


Off topic - but I'm really happy to see and hear about the solid turnouts at Pageland this year. The family/friendly atmosphere and hardworking staff make Pageland a hidden jewel. Those are among the reasons why I try to get to Pageland as often as I can, despite having four racetracks that are closer for me!

There's a nice article on the track in the latest Drag Review online (print version of the magazine should be out in about two weeks).

[Vakdoodo73]

Dave Jack is spoiled rotten---New rid is wired for all that stuff but I took it all out and still race off of my foot. All I gained was a line lock. The blue one didnt even have that. You coming down for the 20k at Piedmont????